Church Discipline 8. How? (After Discipline)

It's not a very detailed outline for tonight's discussion, but hopefully that'll help you follow along. And this is the final Wednesday night talk about this topic of church discipline. We've been talking about what, why, when, and how. And as we've gone through, I think we probably all feel something more of just the complexity of this topic. I mean, we could spend so much longer wrestling with it, but I think it really just shows us the need we're gonna have for prayer, for wisdom, and just for very carefully working through these situations as they arise. So just briefly by way of review, what is church discipline? I gave a definition that church discipline is when the church confronts a member in his sin and if he refuses to repent, ceases to regard him as a Christian. And so why would this happen? Why would the church do this? And I laid out four main purposes. Number one, to restore the offender. Number two, to protect other believers. Number three, to preserve the witness of the church. And then number four is really like the umbrella overarching purpose, to glorify God. Then we ask the question, when? So when is church discipline called for? What kind of sin would result in church discipline? And I argue that that would be sin that's unrepentant, that's observable in the sense of there's some sort of, it comes through in words or actions. And then it's clear in scripture. So scripture clearly indicates this is sinful. We talked through a couple examples, things like, you know, heresy, non-attendance, and repeat offenses. So those are some of the specific things that we've kind of worked through that could be tricky examples. And then we talked about how. So what's the process of church discipline? And we looked at the four steps that are laid out in Matthew 18 of private confrontation, small group confrontation, then church confrontation, and then ultimately removal by discipline. And then we talked about some sort of clarifying questions about that. So one, we talked about how elders play an important role as shepherds and overseers in the church, even though it's not explicitly mentioned in Matthew 18. I think as we think about that in relation to the rest of the New Testament, it seems clear that ordinarily elders should be involved in that process. And then secondly, we talked about how I think we need to allow for some situational flexibility. I don't think Jesus' intention there was to lay out a strictly rigid process that looks exactly the same for every kind of sin in every situation. I think it will look a bit different. If it's a public sin that's on the front page of the newspaper, well, you know, the one-on-one and then two or three witnesses and so on, it might be a different process. And then also, you know, the clarity of the person's repentance. You know, it's if they listen. Well, sometimes one meeting doesn't sort of totally clarify that. There might be a few meetings at each step. So this could be somewhat faster, it could be slower. There's gonna be some situational flexibility that just requires wisdom. Well, today, we're gonna talk about a final question, which is, so how should we relate to someone after they've been excommunicated? If someone is removed from the body by discipline, how should we relate to them? And that's of course a really practically important question because we'll likely all sort of face that at some point, or we've already faced it in time past. So I want to start by just opening it up. What would you say? How should we relate to someone who's been excommunicated? All right, I see a couple hands. I'll start with Hayden. Depending on the reason I communicated, that might be some nuance to how the relationship looks like. So I think it would depend on that as well. Like, very statistically, if we are counting the number of users, then our concern for the sole paramount in that relationship is like any other relationship. Good, yeah, so we want them to be saved. So, yeah, we treat them as an unbeliever, and we want them to repent and come to Christ. Good. Other thoughts on that? Yep. I think it's important just to kind of sharpen that with, I think, the other side of the coin. Even though we want to reach them evangelistically, we also want to take precautions for our own purity, and I think that we also have to take Paul's statement of any so-called professor or believer claims to be a believer and is practicing certain sins be completely limited during this stage. Okay, good. And I think that segues a bit, so can we think what verses or passages could we point to in Scripture that might help inform this a bit more? Any specific verses that come to mind? Robert? I'm thinking of, but I don't know the address where it's talking about you go to a brother after one or two times, have nothing further to do. My wife used to tell the story about converting people or witnessing to people. Picture that. It's easier to get pulled off the chair than to help someone else get up on the chair. And she meant like the believer is standing on a chair trying to get an unbeliever up on the chair. And if you're not careful, you're liable to get pulled off the chair. Yeah. I think you may have been thinking of Titus chapter 3, verses 10 and 11, which says, as for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful, he is self-condemned. OK. So yeah, that have nothing more to do with him. Very strong language. Andrew? I guess this is more logical, but just that the Christian, one of the really central parts of their life is that they get to have fellowship with believers. And it seems like a really central, like special thing for Christians. So I guess that makes more sense of part of the excommunication is to say that that's not something that they get to partake in. Yeah, there's a removal from the body, which certainly part of that is, well, they're not welcome to the formal communion, the Lord's table with us, but there's also a relational component. They're no longer sort of part of the Christian fellowship. I think 1 Corinthians 5.5 and 1 Timothy 1.20 both mention this language of handing someone over to Satan. And that's the imagery Paul uses, which is a really striking image. hand this person over to the devil, you know, they're removed from the fellowship of the church, the protection and the community of the church, into the hands of the devil. Now, strikingly, Paul says that, you know, that their flesh will be destroyed, but their soul would be saved in the day of the Lord. So it seems to be, it's actually a redemptive goal even while handing the person over. So it's kind of saying we don't let the person continue to enjoy the benefits of Christian fellowship and community while not actually committing to the responsibility of following Christ. And we hope that maybe through handing them over, they will come back. I think of the prodigal son. He comes to his senses when he's eating pig slop and he remembers his father's house. There's a similar idea there. Good, any other verses that come to mind about how to relate to someone who's been excommunicated? Yeah? Good, yeah, do you want to read that? Good. Yeah, so it's someone who is not listening to the words of the apostle Paul. He says, take note of them, have nothing to do with them, or don't associate with them, that he may be ashamed. Like this withdrawing, this lack of association should provoke shame. But then he adds, but don't regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. Now, that can be a little bit confusing because normally when we think of excommunication, we think, well, this person is not sort of maintaining the status of brother. You know, they go from being a brother to a Gentile or tax collector. They're now being regarded as a non-Christian. So you could make an argument maybe Paul has something less than excommunication in mind here. I think more likely Paul is just trying to express something of the attitude or the heart we should have toward this person. That even though on one hand we are not associating with them, well it's not because we hate them as an enemy. But we should have a warm brotherly affection. We are warning them as a brother in the sense that we love them. We want to do them good, and yet because of the seriousness of the sin, there's a serious change in relationship. But our heart needs to be full of love. So, that's how I personally wrestle through that, but it's a tricky verse to interpret. Yeah. Right. Yeah, which, by the way, that's a really key one that we haven't mentioned yet directly, but Matthew 18, 17, so if that fourth step, your Jew says, let him be to you as a Gentile, or heathen, or pagan, and a tax collector. So a Gentile would be a non-Jew, an outsider to the covenant community. Jews, in general, they would not eat. with Gentiles. I remember Peter gets in a lot of heat for doing that in the book of Acts. And Gentiles worshipped other gods. You know, they were, you know, idolaters. And then tax collector, generally these were Jews who were then working for the Roman government. So they were very much, and oftentimes they were swindlers as well, sort of overcharging. So they were very much viewed as traitors. So Jesus, yeah, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. You know, he's saying let him treat them as an unbeliever who's not within the covenant community, even to some degree as a traitor. We know from the rest of Jesus' teaching, this is not saying hate them. We are to love them, but there is this change in fellowship. We don't fellowship with them, and there is a sense of sort of beware. These people are not sort of on the same team, and so we need to have that kind of caution. Yeah. The verses that I was quoting earlier by the way, I didn't remember offhand. But I do think that the context is a little different, even though there's that paradox, seeming paradox. It obviously seems almost contradictory to our finite minds, but obviously not to God. But I think that we have to realize that the context of the previous Gentiles, and I'm is a context of ignorance. These are people that aren't aware of the things of God, haven't been taught and received a knowledge, at least associated with the church, into a knowledge of understanding of what God expects and so forth. And they are obviously in the context of people that are either willing to repent or Jesus moves on to continue to preach the gospel. So I think there's to have a seeming kindness, a very apparent kindness, because even the verse he quoted from Thessalonians talks about regarding him as a brother. But at the same time, too, we have to realize that there's a shame that's supposed to come to that believer, or potential believer, and if we don't allow that on a personal level that may be counterproductive. Yeah, and so I want to go to 1 Corinthians 5 next. So if you guys want to turn there, 1 Corinthians 5, 9. I'm a little hesitant about drawing too much difference, because in Matthew 18, it's sin. They sin against you. So there's not an ignorance of what's sinful. And there's clearly someone that's saying, I'm going to sin, and I'm not going to listen to the whole covenant community, the whole church that's telling me otherwise. Well, I've been there prior to those people. Oh, you're talking about, okay, about eating with, yeah, tax collectors and sinners, that charge. Okay. Good, thanks for the clarification. So 1 Corinthians chapter 5, picking up in verse 9, Paul writes, and this is right after calling for excommunication of a man in the Corinthian church, he says, I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people, not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother, if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard or swindler, not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you." And by the way, that last quote, purge the evil from among you, that's repeated nine times in the book of Deuteronomy about all sorts of different sin in the covenant community, how they were to be punished or cut off. What's significant about this text is that I think it makes crystal clear that there is some difference in how we relate to an excommunicated person from any other unbeliever. Because Paul actually specifically says here, you know, when I said not to associate with these kind of people, I didn't mean the people in the world, because then you would have to go out of the world. but I meant specifically someone who has the name of a brother, that is, you know, a Christian who then, in the context of everything he's talking about, is excommunicated for unrepentant sin that he lists. And so he's saying here there's some level of association that would be appropriate with any other non-Christian, but would be inappropriate with an excommunicated member of a church. And then he gives a specific example of not even to eat with such a one. Which is interesting because in chapter 10 of 1 Corinthians, Paul actually talks about if an unbeliever invites you to dinner and you desire to go, and then he gives details about the food sacrificed to idols and so on. So clearly he thinks it's okay to go eat with an unbeliever, but here he says if it's someone who is an excommunicated member, not to eat with such a one. And now we can come back to kind of talk about, okay, how does that translate into our situation today in a slightly different culture? But we do need to take note of that. One other verse that wasn't mentioned yet, Romans 16, verses 17 and 18. Paul says, I appeal to you brothers to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you've been taught. Avoid them. So that's just a brief summary of some of the key verses about how should we relate to someone who's been excommunicated. And I want to take a moment and sort of try to sum this up. So how do we kind of fit these things together? And I would put it like this. In many ways, we should treat them like any other unbeliever. We should love them. We should be kind to them. We should be calling them to repent and believe the gospel. You know, wanting them to come and embrace Christ and be in our fellowship. But, you know, we don't have Christian fellowship with them or take the Lord's Supper together, just like we would not do that with any other non-believer. But then there is some additional level of caution that we need. that there's some additional level of disassociation. And that comes through in saying, have nothing to do with them, avoid them, don't associate with them, and so on. And so I think this is where there is some tricky work to be done. What exactly does that look like, tangibly? You know, would it be wrong, for example, if, you know, someone got excommunicated from our church and I'm trying to meet up with them and we decide to meet for lunch so that I can talk to them and say, you know, where are you at spiritually? You know, have you, you know, thought about the seriousness of your sin? Will you repent? Would that be appropriate or would that be in violation of 1 Corinthians 5? You know, I think that's a question to sort of wrestle with. So I think what would be helpful first is to try to think, okay, what's the principle at work here? Why would it, would there be any difference that, why would Paul call for some additional level of disassociation from someone who's excommunicated than just any other unbeliever? What might be the principle at work there? David? And two would be, if the sinner thinks there's still a part of your body, then you're jeopardizing their soul. Yeah, great. Yeah, that's really good. Anything else to add to that? Hayden? Yeah, and just for your own sake as a believer, the idea of bad company corrupting good morals, you don't want to get too close to that person. Yeah, I think those are the three things I had written down as well. Oh, Ann? This isn't anything to add. It's a question. Yeah. How do you do that without, where you're trying to make it clear that you're not going to associate them because of their unrepentant sin, but that you still care for them? Yeah. Let's come back to that question. I think that's a really good one. And yeah, so what I would say, so we've got these three things that were mentioned. I think the overarching kind of principle, what's different about someone who's been excommunicated versus just any other unbeliever, I would say is that the person who was excommunicated is self-deceived in a way that some other unbeliever is not. Right? Because all unbelievers, we would say, well they're deceived in the sense that they don't know Christ, they're believing lies. But it's the excommunicated church member who is under the illusion that I am a Christian, and I'm going to go to heaven, and probably, and Jesus is going to, is my Savior. Wow, there is some sort of glaring contradiction in their life. And so there's a layer of self-deception that's present there that's not present elsewhere. And I think that self-deception contributes to why the reasons that were mentioned. Number one, we have to be all the more careful how we associate with that person for their own good. You know, if you used to just go to their house every Friday night to just casually hang out, and then after they're communicated, you just continue to do that. Well, I think that can really undercut something of the seriousness of their sin and the urgency of repentance. You know, if you imagine that that person had seriously mistreated a member of your family, and they're just refusing to repent, like your relationship wouldn't just continue unchanged. Well, similarly, I mean, how much more like they are actually rejecting Christ. So I think that is going to affect our relationship with them. We don't want to associate closely with them so that they will feel the seriousness of sin that they're just sort of rationalizing. Then a second thing is we want to be careful how we associate for our own good. That was mentioned as well. You know, being around someone who claims to be a Christian and with whom you have so much in common, but who's made peace with sin. is dangerous. They have befriended the enemy. So there is that sense in which they are like a tax collector or a trader. They're just not a safe person spiritually to be around. I think there's a way in which it's more spiritually dangerous to be around someone who is a professing Christian who has so much in common but is just sort of at ease with sin versus just an open atheist. I think there's more risk. Romans 16 continues, after it says, avoid them, it says, for such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery, they deceive the hearts of the naive. And I think we can be deceived. Or 1 Corinthians 5, 6 says, a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Their sin spreads. And then the third point that was mentioned as well is for the good of our witness. We have to be careful how we associate. Occasionally, I've seen on YouTube or the internet, you'll see some picture pop up and it's some pastor shaking hands or embracing some notorious false teacher. And it's just not a good look, right? And just think about how it would be different if you saw that pastor and he's shaking hands with Tom Brady or Michael Jordan or some other person like that who, to my knowledge, they don't profess to be Christians. Well, that doesn't communicate sort of fellowship in the way that you just have to be so careful about. And I think in a similar way, we need to be aware of that. What are we presenting to the watching world in the way we relate? So I think those are some of the principles at play, some of the reasons why scripture would call us for this additional level of disassociation with an excommunicated member than with any other non-Christian. Now, all of that then has to get filtered into specific situations. So, you know, what do you do if, you know, you're trying to, is there ever a time that you would meet up with this person? And does it matter substantially if any food is involved there? What do you think? Robert? I think that the difference would be, I really like how Andrew said it, we did fellowship with the Bible. So in your example of hanging out on Friday nights, I don't think we would just hang out with a person, but we would make it very clear. I'm willing to stop and have coffee, but we're going to do it to discuss this, not football or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, and I would agree. I think, again, it depends. And we need to have that heart of, like, we want this person to come to Christ. We want them to repent. We should be like our God, who is like the Father, who's scanning the horizon for the prodigal son. We should be looking for that first sign of turning and be ready to run to them, because we love them. But the other thing you said, though, is that's that other category. It's not just self-deceit. They could be themselves deceivers. Right. And I think that also is another factor here in, you know, we've got to be careful about lumping every situation into the same thing. There is sort of a difference between a wolf and a goat. Not all people who are unbelievers are sort of equally sort of bent on convincing and, you know, trying to misguide other Christians, you know, so that should weigh in of, you know, how we handle the situation. Yep. Is it different if somebody continues to claim to be a Christian and says, I do all these things and that's fine, and I'm not repenting about that, versus somebody who stops calling himself a Christian and says, I don't believe that, I don't bear that name? Yeah, that's a great question. And I would argue yes. So we, in the past, we've kind of distinguished between church discipline and apostasy. So apostasy is someone who they just say, I don't believe, I'm not a Christian. And I think there we would be much more like, yeah, we would kind of treat you just like an unbeliever because You say you are an unbeliever, and there's no sort of deception about it. But yeah, I think the person who says, continues to claim to be a Christian, that's really where excommunication would be called for. Yep? So what if somebody who's not been a part of your church, but somebody claims to be a Christian, they don't believe the Bible, they don't believe Jesus is the only way, they don't believe the gospel, but they claim to be a Christian, Do you, does this impact how you relate to them? Yeah, I think it should impact it. I do think there is something different about a person who has been well taught, and this whole process of discipline, like there's actually been a whole church that's confronted them. versus just sort of you as an isolated Christian, and they're kind of in a church that's actually affirming them, that would factor in. Now, there's still a sense in which there's some danger there, and I'm going to be careful how I relate to them, but I'm going to be a little bit more understanding, I think, of someone who is, they're not in a church that's rightly handling that, versus someone who is in a church that's actually been through the whole process of discipline and that church has excommunicated them and their In general, I think we're going to stand with the decision of that church. And it's kind of like, no, you need to set things right with that church, because we're all standing together. So is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah. A second question, though. Yeah. It's a great question. I was that yeah I am and it's one of those that I I can't think of a specific scripture offhand if someone else has one, let me know. My instinct is to say, similar to, we know scripture talks about if you're married to a non-Christian, Well, on one hand, you should not just decide to marry a non-Christian, but if you're already in that situation, well, you should be faithful to the marriage. So I do think there's a way, and I would not be on the side of saying, you know, this sort of overrides all family responsibility, or, you know, like, if it's a family member, we just have no association. I think there's something kind of providential in, you know, God has put this person in my family. There's, again, there's wisdom about how do I relate to them. I think there's some change. But I don't know that separation would be as stark. So I don't think it would be wrong to have Thanksgiving dinner with a family member who has excommunicated from a church, personally. Yeah. Yeah. I just think sometimes we underestimate really the importance of what shame and guilt can do in bringing someone to true repentance. And so I personally would not have Thanksgiving dinner with that person. And I would explain to that person lovingly and politely and respectfully why I'm not willing to do that. But I would perhaps, like you said, meet with them on the basis of repentance or to discuss the actual matter. But to have a family dinner or an association like that where we're just partaking together, I would make the decision not to. And I personally think that that is the most merciful decision of the two. And the reason why I do is because I believe in the power of shame and guilt in that sense, where you clearly stand for the truth of the gospel, to bring that person back to the heart of Jesus Christ. And I believe in that firmly. So I think it's difficult. It's hard waters to travel, but But I don't think there's a wrong thing on the other side with taking a firm stance and saying, I truly want this person to, I'm not trying to make this person feel bad, but I know that ultimately that shame and that guilt is what drove me to Christ and is what can drive them back to Christ. So yeah, and I hope we kind of take from it, there's a lot of, you know, a situation we gotta wrestle through, you know, and be prayerful and just strive to understand scripture and be as faithful as we can to the situations that we're in. So we're at time, but let me close us in prayer. Father, we thank you for your word. We thank you that your word is clear, and it is sufficient to equip us for every good work. Lord, I pray that even as we face situations that are not always as clear to us as we would like, that it would just drive us to trust you more, to study your word more carefully, and we pray that you would guide us by your spirit, that you would grant us wisdom, and that through it all, we would be drawn nearer to you. Lord, we thank you for this time and pray these things in Jesus' name. Amen.