Q&A Genesis 44

Hey everyone, thanks again for listening to a Q&A with a pastor. My name is Asher Griffin and I'm sitting down with the Dr. Keith Wesley Goad. Now Keith, I've never asked you this, but who is the Wesley in your name? Is that Charles Wesley? I don't know. I don't think my parents had either one of them in mind. Just Wesley. They thought you would be the next famous Wesley. I don't think they ever intended me to be famous. Here we are. Well, I've got a couple questions that people... Here we are indeed. That people have both asked me and they want me to ask you about the sermon from Genesis 44. First, what was the sermon from Genesis 44 about? Jesus 44 really is primarily the speech of Judah. So in the bigger story of Joseph, you see him putting the final major task to the brothers. Are they going to retreat and leave their brother Benjamin behind? Or are they going to step up and defend the brother? And it's really amazing because you see how Judah has really been kind of on the sideline this whole time. but maturing and growing and even being inverted. And then all of a sudden, Genesis 44, you really see him step up to be the leader of the family. So, a lot of things are happening within the family here. But most importantly, we see Judah, who is the forefather of Jesus Christ, he actually reflects what Jesus will do by wanting to give his life over for his brother. Now, I noticed that this week in particular, not that it's a new thing, but it certainly seemed to drive a big part of the message was you were addressing different crowds throughout your application, throughout the explanation. You would, for instance, say, now if you're here and you're not a Christian, or if you're here and you are a Christian. Within that, you also talked about the self-righteousness of the Christian and non-Christian. and the humble approach to living for the Christian and the non-Christian. Why did you want to distinguish, one, between the Christian and non-Christian so much? And then also, why talk about both self-righteousness and humbleness within the sermon? I would actually like to do that more every week, but there hasn't been so much to talk about. Typically, the gospel is just very sweet and straightforward in this message, in this passage. And so I was able to think through, you know, how would it apply to different people here. I follow the model of Gregory of Nazianzus that the pastor is a physician of the soul. And one of the key things you do is try to diagnose the particular problem in the particular person. And so us all having various personalities, various pasts, various sin habits, various desires, I've just come to realize these are major patterns in anybody, either non-Christian or Christian, is that either you think too much of yourself or you think too little of yourself. That's kind of the two ways the heart goes. Very few people have the balanced view that I am made with dignity and love by Christ. Typically I was thinking less or more. So I just wanted to address that from both sides as a Christian and a non-Christian. I think I showed you the Greg of the greats, the pastoral rule. He had, goodness, hundreds of pages, well hundreds of different categories, how to address the rich and the poor, how to address the meek and the prideful, how to address the man and the woman, how to address the lowly and the ascetic. It was amazing all the different categories that he thought through in terms of how to diagnose the different kinds of problems and personalities. So I think something helpful for pastors to do. But you have to know your congregation as to what kinds of folk are there. Yeah. And I know I know the answer to this. But are you also instructing people on how let's say that the room is just full of Christians. But by you talking about now if you're here and you're not a Christian you're teaching Christians how to think about the world outside of their own religion. Because if I'm only thinking about, there are only Christians in the room, but then you tell me, now here's how you would think about this if you're not a Christian. You're teaching me of how to go out and talk to non-Christians. Yeah, that's something I'm actually trying to do very intentionally, and I think I borrowed this, I'm almost certain it comes straight from Tim Keller, that Christians should hear you address non-Christians, and non-Christians should hear you address Christians. And that last one's really important. If I'm addressing a room full of non-Christians, and I know there's a slim chance you know, Christians would come to whatever event that might be. I would still want to address the self-righteousness of Christians, mainly to just go ahead and blow up that whole cop-out for why they don't want to become a Christian. Yeah. Okay, next, one of the quotes from the sermon that I was asked about, you said, God saved sinners by sacrifice to be a sacrifice. And the question is, how am I called to die in that circumstance? Because Christ was, his sacrifice was his death and resurrection. In what way are we to be like that sacrifice? In what way are we not to be like that sacrifice? Yeah, I believe this was the actual overall message. This was the thesis of the sermon. I tried to address this with a really badly placed maybe joke in the sense that if we're all called to die for someone else and well, we wouldn't be here in the church because we'd all be dead. That didn't go over well. I didn't laugh. Yeah, no one laughed. It wasn't funny. I laugh later when I think about it. So, God saves sinners by a sacrifice to be a sacrifice. Really, what I'm trying to do there is present the basis of who we are. We are saved by God's sacrifice in the new purpose we receive, to be a sacrifice. When I say sacrifice, I'm thinking more of the Romans 12. We are to be a spiritual offering lifted up to God. We are supposed to be poured out as that offering in the praise of God. And so, when we're sacrificing, we are denying ourselves and taking up our cross and laying down our lives for others. And so, that's what it means to sacrifice. Deny yourself, give your, and follow Jesus. And when you do that, you're going to automatically have to fulfill Philippians 2, the most clear place to see this. You will consider, you will start considering others more important than yourself, and consider their interest more important than your own. And so, I don't think it, I don't think it always means to literally die for someone. It may. It may actually mean that in order to protect, in order to proclaim the kingdom of the gospel to someone that you literally want to replace them. Punishment, death, whatever it may be. But I think the general teaching is that you you sacrifice by giving yourself over for them for their spiritual, physical, mental, and emotional needs. Okay. One other thing that you said, if you already love everyone, how are you ignoring God? Now, in this case particularly, you were talking to the non-Christian who may say, well, I already love someone. And we can hear this a lot where we ask people, you know, what do you think about God? We know they're not a Christian. They say oh, I love yeah, I love Jesus. He's a great guy. Jesus is my homeboy. We see on shirts things like that. Maybe I see them on shirts more than others, but... You own that shirt, don't you? I want to. Can you both love people and love God as a non-christian? I mean, can you love the thought of God or is that not reconcilable with the biblical form of loving God and pursuing him. So can you both love people and love God as a non-Christian? I would think your love for people would be at a different level. I think there are people out there. I can think of some that I actually knew at Starbucks. and they loved people. They just genuinely had a great love for almost all people. You rarely heard anything judgmental or mean come out of their mouth. They were generally a happy disposition and always sought to do something for somebody else. I was amazed that these non-Christians that I knew were much more loving than me as a Christian even in terms of being tolerant and caring and non-judgmental. That's what I was trying to address there. The mentality that as long as we all get along, we're all okay. Well, no, because it's not about getting along, it's about worshiping God. And so, that is really what I was going after more. Your question of can a non-Christian love God? No. Because I would assume you're saying, how do you ignore God? And would you say that those people who love people so much, have they made people their God? Yeah, that's the issue there. They love the idea of a God, but it's not the true God. Their idea of God that they love is some kind of... peaceful, hippie God. They love a false image of God through relationships of other people, is what you were saying there. Yeah, and it's a morality of as long as we're all nice to one another, we're all good people, which is false. Now, let me turn that a little bit. Can you love God and love others as a Christian, as a believer in Christ? And is there a balance there of loving God too much to where you're not focused on people as well or loving people so much to where you're slightly ignoring God? I mean, is that the balance that we're all going for and loving loving the Lord and loving others as ourselves? Yeah, you can never. Well, one, we will never love God the way we're supposed to because our hearts are too sinful until Christ comes back and gives us a new heart. You can never love God too much. This kind of gets back to the old saying, you're so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good. Anybody who is properly and truly heavenly minded is the most earthly good. The person who loves God the most is the most earthly good. Because whenever you love God the most, that means your affections, your desires, your thoughts, your behavior, your actions are aligned with him. And that means you're going to be living like Jesus. Which means you're the most earthly good you can possibly be. You're the best ambassador. You're the most image of God that you can be. So, I don't think you can love God too much. Can you love Christians too? Or can you love others too much? Yeah, you can love others more than God as a Christian. That's one of those imbalances that you have to wrestle with. No, but no, you cannot love God too much. Can't love God too much, can you love people too much? Yes, you can. How? Well, you can love God. Isn't it good to love people a whole lot? You can love people at the expense of not loving God. Okay. You can make people an idol. If the love of your people are your end, and not love of God as your ultimate end, you are an idolater. And you're using God. You pointed right at me. Please cut that. You're going after me here. Are you saying that you love me so much that you've made me an idol? Next question, please. All right. I've got two questions left, and they're kind of big, so we can go into them as much as we want to. The first one, this is the best one. The first one's about money. Now, you brought up money in the sermon yesterday, and you can just feel everyone get a little tense, because no one likes to be told what to do with money. to the extent that no one likes to talk about money, basically. Like, you don't talk about money, you don't talk about religion, you don't talk about politics. Now, yesterday you talked about two out of those three. So, when you were talking about giving, First, why did you go there? And then two, you stated that we should be so overwhelmed by God's grace that we want to love others with it. In what ways were you thinking? Because I know that a lot of people, they want to put their money towards various different projects and loves in their lives. So first, why did you, when preparing your sermon, think, I want to address money in this way? Well, I really was thinking Practically how can I lead the church to lay it on their lives? Well, you know my mom with other places I didn't mention, you know, one of the clearest places would be husband's love of your wives is Christ love the church That's one of those clear ways in which one can lay down their life. There's only addresses not even half the church. Yeah So I decided to get more general and think of all you know, the different different means and so the three most important resources to me is or my time, my money, and my words. My relationships would be another way of saying words. And making sure that when I am relating, I'm actually seeking to relate to that person for their well-being, not for mine. I'm seeking to be a blessing. For time, I'm very selfish with my time. I need to make sure I'm using it for the kingdom. Money is a hard topic. I think you've been to a couple of these pastor's forums we go to, the Charlottesville guys, and it's something I talk to them about a lot, just because I find it It's awkward, you know, mainly because you have the different pastoral scandals of somebody stealing money and so a pastor... Well, one of the warnings in Scripture is a pastor cannot be greedy for gain. And so, I just want to make sure... I think I overreact to those warnings to never want to address it. But since Jesus addresses it so much, I'm convicted it's something that I have to address because, well, your money is, your heart is. So, that's why I addressed it. I was timid, but decided it had to be said boldly. Yeah, and it wasn't out of context. You brought it into the context of laying down your life for someone. It was through the worst. Yeah, it's true. It couldn't have been shut out if we ran out of time. Would you say it was the climax of the sermon, like that was the best part, was you talking about cash? Oh, I hope not. I hope it was the cross. But you were saying that you can lay down your life for other people by the use of the resources God has given you? Yeah, some people would say money. Yeah, I don't care. I'll give anybody. I'll give somebody a hundred bucks, a thousand bucks, whatever it might be. Money isn't their problem. It would be time. Or how they relate. And so I address all three also to kind of do the same thing earlier. try to hit the different people I would diagnose differently. Because we have all types at Jefferson Park. So, the reason I address money is, one, it's a weak point in my preaching thus far. I haven't addressed it. And I've decided I'm not going to be afraid of addressing it anymore. Mainly because Jesus addresses it so much, it's something that has to be addressed. Where your money is, your heart is. And I believe as Christians, If we're going to confess Christ, we should be spending like it. One of the things I learned from Al Muller's radio show is that you really have to live out your convictions with your wallet. That was one of the main principles he was always driving. I found it to be very helpful in general. Now, going back to the second part of that question, being overwhelmed in such a way by God's grace that we love others with it. Obviously people will find different ways to love other people through their money. Some people just want to give to the church, some people want to take people out to dinner constantly or they want to fund projects. We think of, you know, water projects in Africa or we think of, you know, giving money to AIDS programs and those kind of things. So when you were thinking of the phrase being so overwhelmed by God's grace that we want to use it to love other people, in what context were you hoping people would grasp from that? Because obviously our minds are going to go elsewhere and you can't program us to think But were you just hoping that people would give to the church or? And what angle were you hoping people would gain from that? Well, first, Asher, if I programmed you, you wouldn't know it. Well, I don't know. You're right. Secondly, more importantly, yeah, I mean, obviously the first place is to the church. You know, the local church ministry that you have committed to committing your finances to the well-being. Investing in that ministry with your finances, your time, and your relationships is key. And I think it's important to give to the church and then make sure that the church is putting forth trustworthy men to decide the purposes of those finances, to make sure they're being used for kingdom purposes. If you also, you know, you're giving faithfully and loyally, you know, okay, we can throw out that, you know, 10%. That would be like the mark of basic giving. I would hope people are giving more out of a joyful, generous spirit. But, you know, you're giving to the church, the church is doing well, and you're looking for someone to partner with in a more personal missions setting. Yeah, talk to the church. Find out who the missionaries are who need support. that we could easily recommend. Yeah, those would be two easy ways. Okay. Now, the final question that I have, you gave three priorities for laying down our lives to other people, and they go in order of importance, is what you wanted to get a hold of. The first one is laying down our lives for those within our local congregation, so here at Jefferson Park. The second one, the church at large, so our global brothers and sisters in Christ. And then the third one, the non-Christians throughout the world, both in our neighborhood and across the edge of the map. First, what if you only want to do one of those? So let's say that you have a heart for just serving people in Jefferson Park, or you think that you only have time to just serve people in Jefferson Park, or if you're more interested in reaching other people in Eastern Europe, and that's just where your heart is, you want to go there, do you see an issue with only wanting to serve in certain areas, or, and then two, what if you want to serve all? How can you do all properly? Do you wake up and say, okay, I will love the person in my church, I'll write them a card, and then I'll write to a missionary, and then I'll, you know, seek a friend who's not a Christian. How do you go about doing that within those three categories? Yeah, I knew Tim when you asked questions. That was like four All right, that was a whole Q&A on this. All right, all right. Before you start asking more questions, let me try to answer at least one of those. And if you don't answer them, I'll just tell you my answer. Oh, you're that guy who asks a question when he has the answer to it. My bad. All right, after that, I really forgot what you asked. No, no, no. I want you to stop. I'm going to do it. It's all yours. So those who want to do all three, you know, we all have limits. And I think when you covenant with a body, you need to be committed to a local body with other believers. for the benefit of your own soul, for the Lord's Supper, for the ordinance of baptism, to hear the preaching regularly, to be accountable. I mean, that one is like the indispensable one. You need that for your well-being. You're supposed to march, not as a lone ranger, but with the army that God has appointed you to in your own area. The Universal Church actually is the one that I would say, if you're going to cut one out, it would be that. in the sense that a lot of people want to help other missionaries who aren't part of your local body. A lot of Christians want to help out the different parish organizations. You don't have to be a part of those. Now, I don't think you should stop praying for other churches in the area. I don't think you should stop supporting them in the sense that, you know, when somebody asks you about it, you tell them, yes, that's a good church. Just on the road, Trinity Presbyterian, it's a great church. Up the road, Laurel Hill, it's a great church. Scarf Baptist Church, it's a great church. Trust those men that are preaching the word faithfully. But in terms of how much time and energy and financial resources you would give to those, it's, you know, that doesn't have to be a whole lot. I think what I'm thinking of in the trajectory is, you know, widows. First let's make sure the widows of Jefferson Park are cared for well. Then let's think of the Christian widows who aren't part of Jefferson Park and make sure they're cared for well. Let's look at the widows who are in the world. The hard part of this is you want to make sure evangelism isn't somehow put off through all this. So that's why I say focus on the local church and then find ways to help do evangelism missions through your local church. That way you're loving the world. Churches often major on either discipleship or evangelism. As I've been in churches and studied churches, You either do one well, or you do one or the other well. And I want to make sure we begin with evangelism, or we begin with discipleship, sorry. We begin with discipleship, and we end up doing evangelism well. Because one of the last things you want to do is just go out and serve the world, and then they come home to the church, and it's this broken down, rusty piece of chunk. Because no one's actually investing in the body of the saints itself. The church itself is evangelism. with the way we live with one another. So those who want to do it well, you realize there's a lot of limitations. How much time do you have? How many children do you have? How much energy do you have? What are your gifts? Would you say that some people are certainly more gifted at evangelism or discipleship? And so if I'm more gifted at discipleship, should I focus on internally serving this body? Or if I'm really gifted at evangelism, that I should really be serving in many ways the body by reaching the lost within the world. Are there different categories that you can serve primarily? Or are you more looking at how does your heart care for that trajectory? Your heart should care for your local church first and then reach out. Is that what you're going for more than the practice of what these things bring out? No, I think there is a prioritization. Do not go loving the world and not love the church. That would be a problem in the sense of loving non-Christians, not the worldliness. Gifting has a huge part of it. My fear there is giving people a cop-out. Oh, I like to serve. I like to make things for people. And so I'm only going to do that in the body because they're afraid of evangelism. I've heard the gifting thing is more of an excuse not to do something than for a reason to do something. And so my challenge, that's something I wrestle with, trying to evaluate, do you tell someone to balance themselves out so they are doing discipleship well and then they learn to do evangelism? Or do you say, look, you're such a good disciple, focus on being a disciple and trust the disciple evangelist. It's a difficult understanding of who the people are and really what they are truly capable of. And I guess within this context, we're talking about laying down our lives. And so you're would you look at this from a family perspective of you would want to lay down your life for your son first and then your son's friends and then to an unknown guy or is that a is that taking the family out of context and looking at the gospel. So how did you. It is very important to keep in mind we're talking about laying down our lives laying on your life as being that intentional loving sacrifice. That isn't, it's not discipleship versus evangelism. Laying down your life is a very intentional act where you know somebody and you're giving yourself up to them. Yeah, I think you do start with those who are closest to you. This is logically obvious because those are the people that you know their actual needs. Yeah, and I would assume that's why Jefferson Park has had a church covenant where we are Openly making promises to one another and we can be held accountable to them I mean is that is that what you see when you ask you know people as they join that this is what this covenant means that you are You are putting yourself up to be held accountable and also to love those who will need it. Yeah Yeah, it is one of the sad things in recent church history is that covenants have been replaced by purpose statements These churches are doing outreach very well because their purpose is to do that and but they've lost the covenant side of, you know, how we're supposed to care for one another, the summary statements. Very good. Well, anything else that you want to expand upon that you didn't hit on in the sermon or you wanted to hammer home? I mean, obviously you wanted to talk about laying our life down for others, as we've seen, but also we saw a clear exposition of a future gospel that's going to come out later in the Bible through Christ. Yeah. And I was surprised you mentioned, I would like to know how many times you actually mentioned Jesus or Christ, because you started from the beginning. At the beginning, I was thinking, are we ever going to get to Genesis 44? Or is this just going to be Jesus? If you ask me a word scramble, how many times Jesus versus Joseph and Judah came up? I would assume the three names were probably equally mentioned. But I mean, Judah was a fantastic model of Christ there. Yeah, I really enjoyed studying this particular text because it was rich with multiple layers of what was actually happening. It was one of those rich texts that had multiple layers. in terms of Judah's own regeneration story and then Judah modeling the regenerator, the Savior Jesus Christ. Next week, I'm actually even more excited, well not next week, I'll be gone for a week. They're very thankful for the pastor from South Shore Baptist. I'll be preaching this week. But then when I come back, I'll be doing Genesis 45, the weeping reconciliation of the brothers. Very good. All right, well, Keith, thanks so much for your time. Well, you've talked a lot, and I've asked a lot of confusing questions. So I appreciate what you've been able to answer, and if you have any questions that you would like Keith to answer after a sermon, please email them or talk to me. You can email Congregation. at jpbc.org and we'd love to fire him at Keith in hopefully a non confusing way. Thanks for your time Keith.