Q and A

Hello? Yeah. Okay, so we have a question and answer time with Andrea now. So I have a basket full of questions. So I'll just take them out and then we'll give them to Andrea and go from there. Okay, so first question. How should we respond when people don't want help or respond poorly to exhortation? Great question. I'm praying as I try to answer this because I want to be thoughtful and I know I'll only be able to give a snippet of an answer. So read the first part again. How should we respond when people don't want help? One of the first things I would do is just to pray. So pray and don't take it personally. It can be really easy to kind of get our feelings hurt and think, well, they just don't like me or I can't believe that they are rejecting. I'm trying to help them. And for us to say, you know what, this is more about what's going on in their hearts and maybe some of their hurts and maybe even some of their sin than it is about me personally. You will be able to keep the door open to serve them later if you don't get your feelings kind of hurt. And then pray. And I think if someone's kind of responding difficultly to exhortation, One of the things, when I see someone at our church and I think, you know, there might be an opportunity for me to talk to this lady about something, I just want to seek to develop a relationship first, not to just kind of come out and say, I think I see some sin in your life that needs to change. So I want to take a really long view. So can I think about, maybe I can say that in six months, and I want to try to meet with them twice every month until then, just to love on them and hear from them. And that may not change their heart because only God can do that, but it might soften their heart so that they're willing to hear something that's hard. So this is actually a two-part question. So the second part is kind of long, so I'll read over the entire thing and then maybe read over the first part. Will you give a definition or example of what you mean by discipleship? Practically, are you speaking of intentionally meeting at a regular time to read scripture and pray? Or more loosely, weaving biblical conversation and prayer through regular life experiences? Yeah, that's a great question. And it really hits on how fluid discipleship can be. So I think our pastor really says that discipleship is regularly, deliberately, and personally helping another believer grow in Christlikeness. So that there's some intentionality there, and it could be, I have women that I disciple that I meet with weekly, and some I meet with like once a month. So in that sense, it's deliberate and it's regular, but the time may look a little different. Mark Dever has a little book on discipling that is excellent. I really highly recommend it. It goes through a lot of just some of the practical questions about how do we do this well. Now the second part is, is this about just kind of weaving spiritual principles and biblical truth into conversations, we should always definitely do that. I think that that's actually different than what maybe the biblical intent of discipleship is, that the Bible really wants this to be, we're focused on something, we're actually moving toward Christ-likeness, this is not more of an offhand, this is kind of nice to know, although that's helpful and good, but this is, we're really moving toward Christ-likeness in maybe some very particular areas. So it's more intentional in that way. I think so. OK. So the next question is, do you have any favorite biblical counseling resources in particular to help us ask better questions? Oh, I love that question. My husband, I don't know if you all like Amazon Prime, where you get free stuff and free shipping in two days. He calls me his Amazon queen, and I take that with a grain of salt because I love resources. So there are lots of resources. There's an article, and Lisa, if I could send stuff to you, you could get it to everybody. There's an article by David Powelson. I love David Powelson. He has this, I think the article is called X-Ray Questions, and it's literally an article that kind of talks about the art of asking questions and good questions to ask. I also have a worksheet called Drawing Out the Purposes of the Heart, and that's often where I start when I'm biblically counseling someone. I want to know what's going on. So, when do you regularly struggle in relationships with others? Where do you most tend to doubt the truths of Scripture? When do you most struggle with worry and fear and anxiety? What do you regret? Where do you struggle with bitterness? So, you're hitting some major themes. Biblical counseling resources. The Biblical Counseling Coalition, so it's biblicalcounselingcoalition.com, has really some of the best in class articles and reviews of books. They have excellent things. CCEF is also great. I love their material. And if you have other specific questions about resources, come find me or you can kind of shout out, like, what about this particular thing? Because there's some things that I really like and other things that I think that may not have hit me as super helpful right then. Yeah, I think you have some articles in Biblical Counseling site. Oh yeah, I did. I think I've come across them. I forgot about that. Yeah, and I'll also point out that we have on the back seat of our sheet, of our bulletin, we have a list of resources. So those are mostly books rather than websites, but it gives a good starting point too. Okay, so next question, and this is kind of talking about what you were talking about in the last session about saying me too and how that can be helpful or dismissive. So the question is, how can we emphasize and listen without talking about ourselves in a distracting way? Yeah, that's hard. It takes a lot of wisdom to know kind of the right time to start sharing some of your story. Because your story is really important. And it's going to matter to the woman you're discipling if you did go through something like that. I mean, I think about there's lots of issues when I think the woman that is discipling me, she really understands because she's been there. That is helpful. It might not be helpful in the first 10 minutes when I tell her about mine. So it's more of a timing issue than a don't ever do this issue, and that's a great clarification. So think about kind of the timing of that. Read the question one more time. There was something else I was thinking about. How can we empathize and listen without talking about ourselves in a distracting way? OK. Another exercise, and I think if we had had more time, we might have done this. So pair off, just one with each other. And then one of you tell a story or talk about something that you love, whether it's a hobby or a book. And the other person can only ask questions or say, really? Tell me more. Oh, that's interesting. and then time yourself and see if you can do it for 15 minutes. Harder than you think. And so sometimes when I am counseling and I think, oh, I've got an experience in my mind that I think might be helpful. I often don't share a current struggle. So if I am currently struggling with a particular sin, I may not bring that into the conversation with someone I'm counseling or discipling. But if it's a completed, so something that God has done and I kind of saw the resolution, I really knew what my sin was, God helped me through the process of repentance and change. that can be more helpful than kind of like, I don't know what to do, I am in a mess, and I just, I don't like my husband, and so it kind of in the middle of it versus completed. And then I also want to ask myself, am I sharing this because I want to share it, and because it feels good, and I want them to hear me talk for a while, or does this really bring God glory for me to share? Is it necessary? Is it necessary for me to share this right now? Sorry, that was a lot of jumble, so. I think it was clarifying. Okay, so the next question is pretty simple, so I'm gonna add on to it. The question is, are you an introvert or an extrovert? And I would add on to, how do you think being one or the other might affect how you interact with people and help them? Great question. I have so many questions in my own mind about personality theory. Biblically, personality theory is all about desire. So I would want to know, I think it's a valid question, by the way. So I'm going to define those two things before I answer, so at least you're knowing how I'm answering it. So an introvert, I would say, is someone who likes being with people but needs downtime in a pretty fundamental way and actually feels more recharged by time alone so that they can kind of spend energy out. An extrovert actually gets energy from being with people and that's, it gives them lots of energy and they don't feel drained quite as much. It's not that you never feel drained, but you don't feel drained quite as much when you're with people. Is that a fair? I'll read the question again. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? And then I added on. Definitely an introvert, definitely. I will wake up really early in the morning if I haven't had time alone just to be alone. So that's a significant piece for me. But I love being with people. It's been such a joy for me to be with you all. But I'll just kind of need to have some downtime tonight and tomorrow, and I'll be, by God's grace, will be ready to go again. And how does that affect how you minister? You know, it goes back to what we were talking about with weakness. God has designed us with different capabilities and even limitations. There's been seasons in my life where I was more limited than others. I was struggling with migraines, and I couldn't see very many people a week. So I want, in my own heart, to consider, am I not pushing myself to meet with this person because I'm super tired and uncomfortable? And that's a godly limit that I can honor the Lord by humbly submitting to the limits that he's created me with? Or am I idolizing my comfort and rest to such an extent that I'm kind of putting up barriers against people? So it really kind of gets to a heart issue more than maybe I'm wired one way or the other. So even if I'm an introvert, I need to say, am I just loving my own comfort and I'm tired and so I don't want to talk to you? Or am I humbly submitting to the limits God has designed me with? And that's something you'll have to wrestle with in your own heart. Okay, so the next question also has two parts. So I'll just read the whole thing and then you can address it. So with regard to finding others to talk to about your struggle, would you first counsel to go to God first before going to others for help? And is there a good balance of giving a struggle to God so that you're not finding yourself relying on others instead of relying on God? Great question. Always go to God first. And I think that's probably a weakness of my talk last night. We were talking about fighting self-reliance. We're fundamentally relying on God. One of the ways we do that is kind of embracing other people. But it's all with the focus on relying on God. So go to God first. I would encourage you. If you've got a struggle, in fact, I don't want to overstate it, but I know if I go to other people first, I'm often very disappointed. I'm like, that's not what I wanted to hear. You didn't listen long enough. That was not enough compassion. I need a little more help than that. So when I go to God first and unburden my heart, I am then more willing to accept the imperfect but very well-intended help that my sisters in Christ can offer me. So, if I don't go, yeah, if I don't go to God first, then I'm placing an expectation on other people that they were never designed to fill. And that tunes my heart to say, my ultimate need is God Himself, not others. He will use others, and He does in His grace, but fundamentally, God Himself is who I need. Any other thoughts? Or did I miss any of it? No, I think, I guess the second part is, is there a good balance between giving it to God so that you don't find self-relying in others? And I think maybe the unspoken question there is, when do you know, like, when you're isolating yourself by just focusing on giving it to God rather than opening yourself up to the perspective of others? I could be reading into that question a little bit, but that's kind of... It's a really good question. Let me think about that. I think if you have people in your life that know you well, and they find that you're not talking about something significant, then it might be, I'm thinking about my own heart. There's parts of my testimony that I actually didn't talk about, and this is maybe right here, right now, we can have this deeper conversation. There's parts of my testimony that I didn't share last night that I really hate sharing, because they're really shameful. I don't like them. I don't like that I was sinning in particular ways. And my husband's like, why aren't you talking about that? because it makes you look bad or it makes you look weaker. I'm like, well, that's all I've got. And he says, you're not talking about it because you for some reasons that I don't think are good. So I'm isolating myself in the sense that I'm holding back something about my testimony or about God's work in my life because of pride, because I don't like the way it makes me look or feel, not because I'm like, I will share anything about what I've done or where I've been, because God is big enough to do it. So if you have people in your life that are willing, and I'm so grateful my husband is, and he's like, what's going on? Or why didn't you tell the lady who's discipling you about this or about that? That might be a tip off. Why am I not sharing? So you need to really think about your own heart. Why am I not sharing this? Or why am I sharing this? What's the purpose? Either way, what's the purpose? I think sometimes the Holy Spirit will bring that to your knowledge as well. So that's another way to know. Very true. Okay, so the next question. Is it okay to counsel yourself with the skills or steps learned? I love that question. Great question. Yes, yes. So, self-counsel. We learned, I got some reactions in the back. Several of my professors would assign, I don't know if they called them self-counsel, but we took an issue, a real live issue, this is something I'm actually dealing with, and worked through. some of the things that I've talked about, and some of the ways to kind of get at your own heart. Because sometimes it's very surprising. You're doing certain things, and I call that the fruit level, but you don't realize what some of the roots are. And just like a medical condition, if you have a really bad sore throat and a headache and a fever, you might think, I think that's strep. But there could be a lot of other things that are causing it. So you could have kind of a manifestation of the same symptoms, but the root cause can be very different. And so a self-counsel project where you're really implementing some of these tools on your own heart will really equip you to know what those root issues are and help you give it out to others. So I think that's very true. So you would suggest using the similar steps with it as you would use with other people? Yes, with the caveat of Hebrews 3.13. Hebrews 3.13 is just amazing. So it says, exhort one another day after day, every day, as long as it is called today, so that you're not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. So this helps us understand that sin is actually a power that changes our ability to think. It hardens us and it deceives us. So you fundamentally, you need to do this for your own self and there's things that you cannot do that no one else can do for you. But beware of how slippery and insidious sin can be and ask people to help you. Where am I being hardened or deceived by sin? Or ask the Holy Spirit to bring it out as well. Yes. Because you're kind of counseling yourself. Yes, and the Holy Spirit will. Yes, absolutely. Okay, so next question. Another two-parterer. How do you find a biblical counselor, and when would you want to use one? Yes, another question I love. You want to use one all the time. I mean, you just should definitely do it. No, I'm just kidding. So there's a few ways. There's an organization called the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, ACBC. It's the organization that I'm certified through to great absolutely great organization. BiblicalCounseling.com is the website and there's a search for counselors that you can do by geographic location. That's a wonderful, wonderful tool. I also want to say there's a lot of really skillful biblical counselors that don't have kind of that accreditation. So don't let that stop you from seeking help from someone who talks about biblical counseling that might not be have that official designation. Okay, that was about how to find biblical counselors. And when would you want to use one? I think there's a few ways to answer that too. At Mount Vernon we talk a lot about what's the difference between discipleship and biblical counseling. We don't want biblical counseling to eclipse discipleship. Not all the women at my church need to come and talk to me, they just don't. They've got all these wise women. I go talk to these other women for my own stuff. So I would say that counseling, biblical counseling, is intensive discipleship. It's when you're particularly stuck. Not necessarily that the sin is the deepest, darkest sin ever, but you're just not making any progress or you don't have any insight on how to make progress. And maybe when there's so many issues on the table that you don't know where to start. there's 10 things, which one do I start with? And often in God's mercy and providence, they can be like dominoes, and if you pick, you could knock them off one by one, or you can start back here if there's a root issue, and they all kind of go with that. I hope that answers the question. That's a hard one. Yeah. I just wanted to say, when I moved here three years ago, I went through the organization you said to try to find one, and the closest one was a lynch Praise the Lord. Okay. That's so encouraging. That's so encouraging. And some biblical counselors do Skype. So that's also a possibility if needed. That's so encouraging. So great resources right there. I might just build off of this question. I have two other questions that kind of relate to that that occurred to me right now. So you talked last night how in your testimony you found a biblical counselor who wasn't very helpful. He wasn't really taking as good a helpful approach biblically. How can you as a lay person, tell the difference? How can you tell if the counselor that you're choosing is a really good biblical counselor? And this is probably a great place to kind of clarify a couple things. I found a Christian counselor that wasn't helpful, which is completely different than a biblical counselor. Those are two completely separate categories. And that's not really a category in a lot of people's mind, which just makes your question so perfect. So one of the things that I discovered is there's a continuum that counseling kind of exists on. And at the far end over here, we would have secular therapeutic psychological counseling. So they're going to have studied all sorts of theories, like Freud. Freud would be the most popular, at least kind of culturally. But Adler, Maslow, Rogers, there's lots of kind of prominent psychologists that have studied behaviors and made observations over decades about how people function, what drives behavior. And they can have great descriptions and observations about people, and that's helpful. Kind of moving along this continuum, if this is totally unbiblical and this is more biblical, in the middle you would have Christian counselors, and I'm going to make some generalizations, and I want to be as careful as I can. based on my experience and kind of the knowledge of where I counsel in Georgia. So Christian counselors typically have a secular psychological degree, or they've been to an integrated counseling school. And this means they're saying, there's lots of good stuff from secular psychology that we need to use. This is truth, and we need to use it. And they would say, but if it's true, then we should be able to find verifying Bible verses that would corroborate those things. So we're going to integrate psychology with the Bible, and then we're going to develop a counseling approach based on that. What happens is that they start kind of picking and choosing from different streams of psychological theory, and they may find a Bible verse, but it can often be used out of context to kind of support the psychological theory that they found. So they're seeking—the goal is great. They love God. They want to help people, so I don't want you to hear either of those things. But they seek to integrate biblical counseling in a way that we would say is not fully faithful to the Bible often. They're also usually state-licensed, which again, no problem there, but states are are continuing to kind of infringe on what can be done and said in a counseling setting. In Georgia, if a counselor, if a counselee, I don't use the word client, but they would say, if the client brings up spiritual or religious matters and opens the door for that conversation, you can talk about it. If they don't, you can't. Some biblical counselors would say, how can you not talk about Christ when someone in front of you is is hurting and broken and needs Jesus. So there's a lot of people that would wrestle with, how can I be state licensed and abide by the rules of the government and yet be faithful to my Christian testimony? Moving kind of on from Christian integrated counseling would be biblical counseling. And this means that the goals the methodology, and actually the content of counseling comes from the Bible. It's not kind of, I'm going to develop a theory, and I wonder if that's actually really true in God's Word. It's, we're going to look at God's Word and study it expositionally and do exegesis, which means we draw from the Bible the main point of the passage, not read into the Bible what we think we want it to say. to then craft the content and the methodology of our counseling approach. I hope that helps. Yeah, and I think you had a second part. Yeah, so the second part was, do you think that secular counseling is helpful at any point? And if so, how would it work with biblical counseling? I think I would have to say yes, because I, as a young lady that I have recommended to see a psychiatrist because she needed, I really felt like she needed some medication support for what she was addressing. And so as a biblical counselor, I can say, I'm not a medical doctor, and it would be really wrong for me to try to treat someone from a medical perspective. So I want the best, and praise the Lord, we found a psychiatrist that was a believer, and so that's very helpful. I could purely, So not a psychiatrist, but a psychologist or a counselor that was not a Christian, that was really firmly entrenched in secular psychology. I think they have, there's some skill sets, especially around behavioral disorders in school systems or testing that are really, that can be helpful. But their goals for their time with you are going to be kind of feel better, build your self-esteem, and not what does biblical change look like. So I think there's some definite really important functions in some ways. Okay, so the next question, pretty simple one. Could you give us the definition of trust again that you gave this morning? I don't know if I can. I'm trying to think. Trust. Oh, yes, yes, yes, I've got it. Yes, I know what you're talking about now. Trust is not a passive state of mind. It is a vigorous act of the soul by which we choose to lay hold on the promises of God and cling to them despite the adversity that threatens to overwhelm us. And I can send that to Lisa. It's in Jerry Bridge's book, Trusting God. It's so, so helpful. Okay. And the last question. So it's two parts, so I'll read both of them. Do you ever feel drained when you are helping people? And what do you do to avoid hitting the bottom of your emotional and physical strength? Yes, I do feel drained. Sometimes, sometimes. It's really fun. I mean, counseling is really fun in the sense that sometimes the issues are so difficult, but the hope of God's Word is unbelievable. And to see somebody say, you know what, I would never have chosen this for myself, but I'm so grateful that the Lord allowed me to go through this so I know Him better. Those moments are just like, I have a friend who says there are no hard counseling cases, there are only hard people. And sometimes I think if there's a soft, teachable spirit, even if there's lots of work to do, you can do it. You have a lot of joy. But sometimes when hearts are hard, it does get really difficult. And there's only so much you can do. So how do I kind of recharge? My husband is really helpful. Sometimes he just says, you're not working anymore tonight. You're done. And you can go look at a tree, or you can look at a book, or you can stare vacantly out into space, but you're not going to work anymore. And so some of that is actually submitting to his authority and leadership in my life and go, I'll say, but I have. And he goes, you're just done. I'm really thankful for that. The elders at my, I have several elders that are involved, and they kind of monthly keep track of how much I'm doing, who I'm meeting with, and how intense. Because sometimes I may meet with a woman once or twice a week, but then there's four phone calls and, you know, 16 text messages, and, you know, one call at 1030 at night saying, we're having a meltdown, should I call the police? And I'm like, okay, well, so there could be a lot more than just those hours that I'm meeting with somebody. So, I typically do turn my phone off at 10 o'clock at night, and I try not to do any counseling on Saturdays or Sundays, but I really want my downtime, I want to be refreshed by God's Word. And so, I really, I want that to be more true than it is today. So, I seek to try to get recharged and not see this as kind of a work, this is my workbook. No, no, no, this is food for my soul. This is what nourishes me. And so just spending time really studying God's Word is helpful. And then reading, I do read a lot of Christian biographies, like missionary biographies. Because you get another time, another place, a woman who loves God, or a man, and you just see how they're working out their faith. And it's kind of, it's helpful, because you're not just in the middle of study or something really intense all the time. And I exercise, that helps a lot. I guess this is just like a comment on the back of that, is that I imagine that you probably feel ministered to at some level, even when you're ministering to other people, and that God is also using that as an opportunity to work. Absolutely. There are many times when I need to hear what I am saying to another woman, and just to say, look, I don't have this down. Let's do it together right now. Let's get on our knees and thank God for what He's doing and praise Him, not because we have what we want, but because we have Him. And so that's very, very true. Yeah.